Larry King interviews two people - one was Bible College trained the other not trained.
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| Larry King Live title card (Photo credit: Wikipedia) |
Here are some excerpts from MacArthur’s counterpart to Osteen’s Larry King Live interview:
KING: John MacArthur, what happens when you die?
MACARTHUR: Well, when you die, you go to one of two places. According to Scripture. You go out of the presence of God forever, or you go into the presence of God forever.
KING: Depending?
MACARTHUR: Depending upon your personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which is, according to the Bible, the only way to enter heaven.
KING: So therefore a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist will not go to heaven?
MACARTHUR: Christian theology and the Scripture says that only through faith in Jesus Christ.
KING: And you — when we say what happened, what happens? Do you go somewhere as a body?
MACARTHUR: No, your body stays. We go to the funeral. We see the body. It goes into the grave. It decays. Your spirit immediately goes either in the presence of God or out, waiting the final resurrection. There will be a resurrection of all bodies in the end, a resurrection unto life or a resurrection unto damnation.
…KING: It is, John MacArthur, is it not, a guess on your — an educated guess based on your Scriptures, your reading, your faith, but you don’t know, you don’t know know, do you? How can you know?
MACARTHUR: Because the Bible says so.
KING: But you believe the Bible?
MACARTHUR: Well, I believe the Bible, but I believe the Bible can be defended. I believe through the centuries the Bible has stood the test of intense scrutiny, and it is the real and true revelation of God, and it speaks truly about life and death. And someone has been there and come back, and that’s Jesus Christ.
KING: How come only one?
MACARTHUR: How come only one what?
KING: Person ever come back?
MACARTHUR: Well, that’s because the design of leaving this world is to go into the eternal world. The only person who came from the eternal world into this world is Jesus Christ.
There have been a few others, by the way. In fact in the Old Testament, the prophets raised a few from the dead. In the New Testament, Jesus and the apostles raised a few from the dead. And at the death of Christ on the cross, the graves were open and some were raised. And that’s indicative of the fact that there will be an actual physical resurrection to join with the spirits that are with God at death.
NO BIBLE COLLEGE TRAINING
Bestselling author Joel Osteen is the preaching pastor of one of the biggest churches in America. There are regularly over 40,000 attendees who pitch up to hear his sermons. This is quite a responsibility. Especially considering Hebrews 13:17
, which warns that pastors will give an account for each soul in their flock and the injunction in James 3:1 that Bible teachers will incur a stricter judgment.But when he was interviewed on the Larry King Live show, the result of being ill-prepared for ministry was painfully obvious. I feel for him as Larry grills him on this sensitive topic.
KING: Where were you ordained?
OSTEEN: I was ordained from the church there, Lakewood, under my dad’s ministry.
KING: So you didn’t go to seminary?
OSTEEN: No, sir, I didn’t.
KING: They can just make you a minister?
OSTEEN: You can, you can.
KING: That’s kind of an easy way in.
… [then Larry turned up the heat; I italicized the repeated phrase that makes my point] …
KING: …we’ve had ministers on who said, your record don’t count. You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don’t no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything …
KING: What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know …
KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.
[…Then Larry pounces on the fact that Osteen is known as a prosperity preacher…]
KING: What is the prosperity gospel?
OSTEEN: I think the prosperity gospel in general is — well I don’t know. I hear it too. I don’t know. I think what sometimes you see is it’s just all about money. That’s not what I believe. It’s the attitude of your heart, and so you know, we believe — but I do believe this, that God wants us to be blessed. He wants us to be able to send our kids to college, excel in our careers. But prosperity to me, Larry, is not just money, it’s having health. What good is money if you don’t have health?
[…Then Larry asks about the tragedy of the 9/11 terrorist attacks…]
KING: But don’t you want to know, why would an omnipotent — assuming he is omnipotent — God permit that?
OSTEEN: I don’t know, Larry. I don’t know it all.
KING: A deformed baby had nothing to do with free will.
OSTEEN: Exactly. I don’t claim to know it all. I just think that trusting God means we’re going to have unanswered questions and God is so much bigger than us we’re never going to understand them all. And I tell people that have lost a child or that have gone through some kind of tragedy, you’ve got to have a file in your mind called and I don’t understand it file. And you’ve got to put it in there and not try to figure it out and not let it ruin the rest of your life and not get bitter. And that’s what we see so many people do.
[…then a caller phones and asks …]
CALLER: …Do you know why it’s not God’s will that everyone is healed of cancer?
OSTEEN: You know, I can’t answer that. I think it’s a good question.
[…then another caller…]
CALLER: … I’m wondering, though, why you side-stepped Larry’s earlier question about how we get to heaven? The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and the only way to the father is through him. That’s not really a message of condemnation but of truth.
OSTEEN: Yes, I would agree with her. I believe that.
KING: So then a Jew is not going to heaven?
OSTEEN: No. Here’s my thing, Larry, is I can’t judge somebody’s heart. You know? Only God can look at somebody’s heart, and so — I don’t know. To me, it’s not my business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn’t. I just say, here’s what the Bible teaches and I’m going to put my faith in Christ. And I just I think it’s wrong when you go around saying, you’re saying you’re not going, you’re not going, you’re not going, because it’s not exactly my way. I’m just…
KING: But you believe your way.
OSTEEN: I believe my way. I believe my way with all my heart.
KING: But for someone who doesn’t share it is wrong, isn’t he?
OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don’t know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I’m just going to let God be the judge of that. I don’t know. I don’t know.
